David Smallbone: 0:04

This is probably the most interesting story I can tell you. So I come to town losing everything. I'm treated, the industry treats me like a leper.

Chris Estes: 0:14

And you're a national. A national now.

David Smallbone: 0:16

And I can't get arrested. I come over to work for somebody. He let me an artist that I'd toured very successfully in Australia because I'd gone to him and said, hey, I can. He was very successful in Australia, not so successful in America, and I was part of that. I had a partnership with Word Records down there. But what happened out of that is he let me go up to two months and it forced me and my family six kids, another one coming to live by faith, and Helen and I saw the miraculous and we will never forget it.

Chris Estes: 1:04

Welcome to the power of songs podcast, where we explore the powerful connections songs have throughout the journey of life. I could literally spend the whole podcast introducing you and who you are. Some of us captured in the movie that's out right, Some of it is yeah two years, two years of captions, but it's not out till April 26. Okay, I keep seeing the track. I keep thinking it came out, so it's out April 26.

David Smallbone: 1:29

Yeah, we put out trailers. Yeah, but we're doing a. The film company and the record label, everyone's doing a good job of getting the word out. It's a bit surreal. I'm going over to Sacramento tomorrow to Helen and I to a past conference to talk about it.

Chris Estes: 1:46

So it's allowing some lovely things to happen so good. Well, I want to start. All right, so you're from Australia.

David Smallbone: 1:54

Do I sound? Are you saying I don't sound like it anymore? Southern accent.

Chris Estes: 1:57

Like a deep Southern accent, very Southern.

David Smallbone: 2:00

They're also. About as south, as you can go Very.

Chris Estes: 2:04

South. So I like to start with this question, which is really the the arc of this podcast is the power of songs and people that are moved by music, that work in music, that are involved in music, and you've done a lot of things in music. But I like to start with as a young and you may have been older, but typically, you know, at a younger age they have the moment where they're like you. You have the, you feel the power of a song.

Chris Estes: 2:35

Like you're like, oh, I've listened to a song. I've grown up around music and in New Orleans it was like cultural parents music. But I remember the moment when I was like, oh, I like this music and I'm an active listener. So for you, I'm really curious to hear, like what was, what was the first song or songs that you heard, that you're like man, this moves me.

David Smallbone: 2:55

I don't remember the song but I remember probably I was 10 or 11, just moved from a little town called Cabulcha down to the town called Surface Paradise, which is on the Gold Coast of Australia, and the Methodist church would have an annual outreach to all the young people because Surface Paradise is love, like the Las Vegas of it. Surface is. You know Las Vegas, everybody knows Las Vegas here and in America. So Surface Paradise is that in Australia and so they would have this kind of believe it or not dance outreach during the week, during Christmas time, because it's summer down there, and then on Sunday they would have a worship service and I remember distinctly remember this guy getting up and singing contemporary music, because I'd grown up around the church. It was always very traditional, particularly in the.

David Smallbone: 3:55

Methodist church, very Wesleyan and I. That got my attention and I wish I could remember the song, but I think there was some kind of spiritual connection to me at that time. And then when I did start getting into music, when I was 16, which is probably five or six years later I did folk music and in those days we were influenced by Peter Paul and Mary and the Seekers and it had had a gospel tinge about it. And the one song that I remember I'm not sure whether it's from Peter Paul and Mary or the Seekers called we're Moving On. We used to do that song and we won.

David Smallbone: 4:43

We got into the final of the talent quest in Brisbane you know the TV talent question and all that and it was really that song that got us and it was just a very, even to this day, a very inspirational folk music gospel song and so that. And it was different to to the hymns. I love it about the worship movement that it's bringing contemporary music into the church, because I used to always wonder why, why do we have we've got this wonderful message and why do we always have?

David Smallbone: 5:19

such boring music at church, and part of it is that all the hymns were two, three, four hundred years old.

Chris Estes: 5:25

So that that wasn't been like in the 60s, when you heard that I'm 74 now.

David Smallbone: 5:30

So you would have, I would have been. That's going back 64 years ago, so, yeah, probably about 1960.

Chris Estes: 5:37

So at that time was the Jesus movement.

David Smallbone: 5:40

No. It was that hadn't started yet, so you were just Jesus movement started in Australia about 50 years ago when Helen and I were dating and it was, I remember. I remember hearing love song. I was probably 23 or 24 at the time and just thinking it reminded me of a Christian version of the Eagles. I just thought it was incredibly wonderful music and to see them having a bit of a resurgence at the moment, love Chuck, gerard, love those guys. That is kind of a quite a beautiful thing.

Chris Estes: 6:18

How did you hear so? 15 year old David in. Australia. How did you hear Peter Paul Mary's song? Was it radio? How did you? How did it make its way down?

David Smallbone: 6:28

What happened? I was, I was driving home from a youth group at a swimming pool and had a friend with me and they the guy driving was a Sunday school teacher or principal of a Sunday school he heard a singing. He said, oh, can you guys come and sing at Sunday school? And so we put a group together and the guy who led that group came out of rock and roll. He'd come out. He'd come out of rock and roll bruised and he was very musical and he just took us very much into Peter Paul and Mary and the Seekers world. And so that was our band was based on that.

David Smallbone: 7:14

We had a guitarist, a female singer, another lead singer and myself playing the double bass and we we'd play every Sunday night. We would play coffee shops all over Brisbane Some nights, three to four coffee shops. We'd do one at five, one at six, one at seven, one at eight, and you know it was crazy. But the band it was a very, very high quality band and really it was the leader who used to play hotels down there or pubs that we called in Australia and England. He had moved on from rock and roll to folk and folk had a very folk music had a very spiritual influence, even though a lot of people they weren't necessarily Jesus followers. But we then went on to get to know Paul Stuckey out of Peter Paul and Mary and he'd had a genuine change because a fan after Peter Paul and Mary concert had spoken to him and said you need to follow Jesus and that impacted him and he committed his life, even though he was in basically a secular group, to having and he, he and they wrote some absolutely wonderful songs.

Chris Estes: 8:36

Wow, wow, that's great. Double bass. A drum, no double bass.

David Smallbone: 8:42

It's like a bass guitar, except the stand up Like stand up. Yeah, wow, you call it different. Yeah, yeah, well, a large, a large cello.

Chris Estes: 8:52

Yeah, so all right, that song impacted you. What other songs? So you're in that folk band through your teenage years, like from 15 to 21?

David Smallbone: 9:01

Yeah, I was 16 to 21. Yeah, I was in that for five years, so what?

Chris Estes: 9:04

other. What other songs like really impacted you during that time, like your initial? Your playing them. You know it's funny.

David Smallbone: 9:11

I was probably influenced. Every night the local radio station would have the Beatles on at eight o'clock and that play, or Beatles from eight to eight 30, was for BC in Brisbane and I forget the name of the guy who was hosting it, but that they were probably. I just love their musicality.

Chris Estes: 9:33

I just thought it was.

David Smallbone: 9:35

It was upbeat, positive, very melodic in the past. You know it's funny. You know I saw on the notes that you sent me earlier. You know you're wanting particular songs. I think what I picked. I picked up a feel or a spirituality from the singer at that church service in Surface Paradise. It was called a village, that was the name of it. They called it the Christian outreach. It was called a village, but it was almost like I'm impacted by something that's genuine and I felt something very spiritual from that man and you know the fact that even I'm telling you about it. What are we talking about 64 years ago?

David Smallbone: 10:33

maybe 63 years ago and it just you know something in your life, it just gets your attention. And I think that was the start and I played drums at school. I was in the school band and then when I went to high school I played the big bass drum for the cadet band. So I've been a bit of a musician, but I've always been the weaker member of the band and so that's why I realized that I didn't have the ear like my brother did. My brother's in the band with me and others have had, and that's why I got into the management, marketing, booking side. So I would take care of all the bookings and the promotion of the band.

David Smallbone: 11:15

And we ran, I started a coffee shop at that time which came out, believe it or not, the name of the band. The folk band that I had was called the Lost Wanderers. That lasted a couple of years and then the next band after that was called Happiness Incorporated. But I ran a coffee shop every once a month, every Sunday night, and I was the promotions guy and we'd always we'd have it would always be fall and we'd have people coming from all over Brisbane and that he we'd have all the you know the best folk bands and we'd have maybe three or four every Sunday. Never pay them anything, but people just did it out out of love Together. Yeah.

Chris Estes: 11:55

Yeah, what were you guys playing like? What were the songs that you were? Were you, it was like a lot of the 60s folk.

David Smallbone: 12:00

It was all Peter, it was all, peter Paul and Mary Joan Diaz.

Chris Estes: 12:05

The Seekers.

David Smallbone: 12:06

Maybe a little bit, yeah, and some originals yeah, but the main people I remember, and maybe Bob Dylan a little bit, yeah, but yeah it, we, we did some originals. I'd say we probably had 20 songs in our normal set, but maybe one or two of them were original, but they weren't. They weren't great songs and so that we wouldn't end up singing them every night.

Chris Estes: 12:36

Yeah, and were you playing in church too? Or were you just playing in coffee shops on your own?

David Smallbone: 12:41

Yeah, church We'd play everywhere. You know what happened a lot at our church. We'd do maybe one song, one song in the church and then we'd go over to the coffee shop. So church was probably on at six or seven and then run for an hour and then we'd go over to the coffee shop and then it started 15 minutes later and run for another hour. It was. It was at that.

David Smallbone: 13:07

At that time there was a lot of enthusiasm for singing people and I think the folk movement was an encouragement to a lot of people because there was a Jesus influence even on the songs that were sung by by mainstream people. You didn't see that, you know you. You look at the Beatles. You know the Beatles came out of England. You know Peter Paul and Mary came out of America and I think they were, they were probably influenced a little bit by Black Gospel, but the Beatles there wasn't much spirituality there at all, which is crazy because you know England was pretty spiritual going back, you know, two, three hundred years ago, and you know Wesley came out of there and really changed the world at some level.

David Smallbone: 14:08

But it's and I think you know, as I think about that, I think it's a reminder to us here in America not to get complacent, because this is a wonderful country. Me being in Australia and being here 32 years, this is the land of opportunity. I think a lot of not a lot, but some Americans are critical because they've never been overseas. Because I come from another country, I understand the wonder of America and I'm an incredible apologist for America and I think part of it is it's a spiritual foundation. You know you had the best people come over from. You know Europe to get away from spiritual tyranny and I believe it's the Christian foundation of America that sets it apart from the rest of the world.

David Smallbone: 15:07

Now we're going through hard times now and I'm saying to anyone who's prepared to listen hey, we better get serious about revival, because America could fall, because there's a lot of bad actors that are influencing the culture at the moment, and so our challenge is to be loud about Jesus and share his hope to every man and everybody we know.

Chris Estes: 15:34

Yeah, so when you transition from being in the band to promoting the band and being involved in music, when you, that transition was still in the folk space and how did you make the move? Because you have had a huge impact on Christian music. So how did you make the move from that into back into the church and Christian music?

David Smallbone: 15:56

What happened is? I moved from Brisbane to Sydney, so I stopped playing the band.

Chris Estes: 16:01

I would still. And were you married then? No, no, not married.

David Smallbone: 16:07

I moved to Sydney and I'd play the bass Sunday nights for Youth Worship Night, which was always Sunday night, and I was working for a book publishing company at the time. I did that for 18 months, then left that and worked for a mainstream music magazine for about six months and while I was doing that I got offered a job, a mainstream pop record label. I was probably 23 at the time and my role was marketing and so I had a number of bands signed to our label. One was the band called Family who went on to be very successful in Australia, had gold albums, and one of the other bands was the original producer for Hillsong, russell Frager, and I signed him. So even though I was with a pop label, we were signing Christian People and that allowed me internally. So that allowed me to dabble and I kind of pseudo-managed the band called Family because my brother was in that band and I was, even though it was kind of a hobby. My business was working at the record label but my hobby was managing this band called Family and they traveled all over Australia. They did very well. We even supported Bert Bakkerach on one tour which I arranged, and so that's how I started to get into. And then I left that.

David Smallbone: 17:46

I was there at that record label for five years, then went to a radio station as the promotions manager at a radio station back in Brisbane, did that for a year, but I didn't think it was purposeful. I was just entertaining people. I wanted to be in something more than entertainment. So I went back to Sydney and started a record label and a management company, a booking agency. We had a couple of retail stores and that lasted five years before I was pushed out. And then I went independent and that's when I started promoting all the artists from America over the years Just about everybody you've ever heard of In that time Petra, david Meese, leon Patelow, amy Grant, michael W the list goes on. And every two months I would do a major tour across the country and I think I was able to watch everybody.

David Smallbone: 18:48

And then, 34 years ago, I lost everything on a big tour. I'd helped start the Hillsong record label and I helped start that 37 years ago. And then on my 40th birthday, the evangelist from the church from Hillsong, pat Mercedes. He called me up and said we don't want you anymore, we're going to take it in house. And so it was a passion project for me. So I didn't have anything in writing and I thought that was going to be my future. But I think God had a better plan. He wanted me to and Helen and the kids and had six kids at the time to come to America and we came here 32 years ago and I think everything that I did in Australia with all the different artists working for a mainstream record label I didn't tell you that I worked for a mainstream TV station for a while Mainstream radio station.

David Smallbone: 19:41

All that was a perfect apprenticeship for what I do now.

Chris Estes: 19:48

So what I do now is not my first road yet. Let's back out on a backup a little bit. So in Australia, when you started doing all the tours Michael W, amy Grant one of the questions I love asking you guys is like how have you seen the power of songs throughout your career? Like at that time they were doing massive shows, right, and they were coming to Australia and doing big events. So were you seeing the power of faith based Christian songs having impact even then, like in those days?

David Smallbone: 20:20

Oh yeah, and I think the church Australia's post Christian, but the church was stronger then than it is now and I think in a funny kind of way, we played our part in you. Look at what I think music does. There's a lot of discouragement in the world and I think music encourages people. So we would pull every time we'd have an international act come through. We'd pull a thousand to 5,000 a night. When you think the population in Australia is probably 25, 26 million compared to so we're 10% the size of America.

David Smallbone: 21:10

We had a small and even the fact that we don't really have a Bible Belt Bill's song Sydney was probably viewed as the Bible Belt. Maybe not as much anymore, but I think I did it because I saw it as a way to encourage people. I think probably I ended up going down the road of just doing it as a business and I think that's in a funny kind of way I think that's why it was all taken away. So this is probably the most interesting story I can tell you. So I come to town losing everything. I'm treated, the industry treats me like a leper.

Chris Estes: 21:55

And you're a national In national now.

David Smallbone: 21:58

And I can't get arrested. I come over to work for somebody. He let me an artist that I'd toured very successfully in Australia because I'd gone to him and said, hey, I can. He was very successful in Australia, not so successful in America, and I was part of that. I had a partnership with Word Records down there. But what happened out of that is he let me go after two months and it forced me and my family six kids, another one coming to live by faith, and Helen and I saw the miraculous and we will never forget it.

David Smallbone: 22:40

And it's sometimes the corporate shenanigans of our industry leaves me a bit cold, but I my conclusion at 74 is that I'm a lover of the. I'm cynical of the music business. I'm in there to change it. I'm a lover of the church, I said. I sent that. I said that at we showed the movie a couple of months ago here in town and one of my buddies who's been in the industry used to be GM of of the record label forefront records. He, he said to me on the way I can't say that you're cynical, and and I and I thought, well, maybe, maybe there's some truth in what he says, but I'm.

David Smallbone: 23:21

I find myself now after doing this for a long, long time. So I've been doing it for 58 years, started at 16 and now 74. I'm I'm trying to bring the church back into how we do industry and and the church is you and I, you know, and we're both flawed, so we don't get it right all the time. But the principles of the church are Jesus centric, they're Godly, they're so beautiful, they're so life giving, and I've been you know it's emotional for me to say this, but no-transcript. I've seen the miraculous and it changed me and moved me from lukewarm to passionate. And I'm still an outlier in the industry and I take meetings with everybody, even people who disagree with my perspective, but I love having debates with attorneys because they're critical thinkers. I will tell you the best example of God's economy.

David Smallbone: 24:31

This blew my mind when it happened. So 31 years ago I was going to sign a deal with Word Records and we're going to get a $10,000 advance for Rebecca. On the day we were to sign it they pulled out and so the next morning Helen and I couldn't get out of bed because we'd a year of struggle and we thought, oh, at last something positive. That went away and a songwriter here in town a guy called John Moore he heard about that he wrote Love in Any Language, a lot of Steve Green songs he was doing very well at the time Came to me and said I want to give you the $10,000. And that kind of reminded me of my weakness. Small bone, you can't do anything. So I went back to him and I said well, accept it as long as you will accept half of Rebecca's publishing and at that time she hadn't even written a song and Helen was Rebecca St James who was talking about it.

Chris Estes: 25:23

Rebecca was 15 at the time.

David Smallbone: 25:24

She was 15 years old, yeah, and he said okay, and she signed a deal a year later, over the next 10 years. That probably made him somewhere around the 300,000 mark. And I just think it's a practical because I think our pastor went and saw the movie, the unsung hero movie. Darren Tyler's been around the industry a while, went and saw it a little while ago, I think. Helen and I asked him what he thought and he said well, unless you prepare his comment was he said the movie sums it up unless you prepare to live on the edge, you won't see the miraculous. I didn't want to live. I didn't want to live on the edge.

David Smallbone: 26:08

You know I had a really nice house in five acres, the best suburb in Sydney, and over a two week period it was all taken away, and I look at all those people who didn't want to have anything to do with me. I now look back and I'm very thankful because when Rebecca's career started, it allowed us to focus. Had I been working with other people, I wouldn't be able to focus and, as you know, understanding marketing as well as you do, focus is a very important thing, which is hard one here in this town and very few artists get it because every label has so many acts.

David Smallbone: 26:48

And you know, get the priority. You only get the priority while you're doing well either streaming or sales, while it's a consumption and then when you get to the top, it's normally pretty fleeting.

Chris Estes: 27:00

Yeah, it's amazing. So I think I told you this before. Rebecca was the first Christian concert I went to in Mobile, because I wasn't. I didn't grow up a believer in a faith family, so I was in my twenties and she was touring with Clay Cross.

David Smallbone: 27:17

And I was a new believer.

Chris Estes: 27:18

I was like well, I'm going to go see this Christian concert. Is that the ah? It's a big. I used to joke before I was a Christian that was. I called it Fort God because right there on I 65 massive building. But I remember her having the concert with Clay Cross and Clay was great. But I just remember her particularly because she was young and she had a great voice and then what she stood for, like her, like what, what young women needed to hear too was like her purity, Like you know it's a beautiful thing.

Chris Estes: 27:47

I think that's what God had had. Sword for you, man.

David Smallbone: 27:50

Oh yeah, oh it was uh, and and you know people have said to me oh yeah, you know it's, it's good what Rebecca did, it's really good what the King country did, and I'm I'm able to say, well, just so you know, it's all born out of brokenness. Yeah, like I, I was a pretty broken dude. It I was shaking in my boots for about three or four years. But I remember the time I went back for my parents and laws 50th wedding anniversary and that was probably 28, 29 years ago. Just Helen and I went back and we had someone look after the kids here and that was the first time that I remember not shaking my boots for all that time because you know how you just, you just wake up and you feel, uh, the sky is falling at some level and uh, but I, it's almost like what I went through is a good apprenticeship for maximizing life.

David Smallbone: 28:53

Yeah, Uh, because I'm. I cry when I talk about two people. I cry when I talk about Helen has loved me unconditional. And I cry when I talk about Jesus, because Jesus challenged me to give my life away.

David Smallbone: 29:07

Took me a while it took me many, many years to get really serious. But I, you know this whole deconstruction, deconstruction thing and the progressive thing, it's um, doesn't add up to me and I, I have seen the wonder of God's community and I think I would. I think the Lord knew I had to see it so that I would no longer be, I'd take it for granted and be lukewarm, and I'm I'm now very grateful that I went through the hardship. I don't want to go through it again.

Chris Estes: 29:48

No one likes to get pruned. The pruning is hard. So in that time when you saw the miraculous and you felt that, like when you first got to town and you couldn't get arrested, like where were there songs that you latched onto, or you remember like these were soundtracks of that journey.

David Smallbone: 30:06

I remember at the time um way of him came to town and it didn't sting. I'm very much a pop guy. I, uh I've always listened to pop radio and Australia pop radio wouldn't would be Johnny Cash, the Beatles, rolling Stones, whitney Houston, you know, the list would go on. Yeah, I, I wish I could say there were um defining songs, but I, I think, in a funny kind of way, whenever I sense something is genuine, is the song or the artist. It touches me deeply, it encourages me, and I suppose I just I just want to encourage people to be authentic, and if they, if they can't be authentic in what we call to do, there's some people in Christian music that do it as a business.

Chris Estes: 31:26

Transactional yeah.

David Smallbone: 31:28

And behind the scenes they're. They're living a different life and I don't, uh, yeah, I I feel like I'm letting it down because I I'm not really a uh, a song centric guy. There was, I will tell you, an interesting thing that is included. It was included on Rebecca's God album and it was also included on uh. It's included on Joel and Luke's uh, inspired by album which is coming out, was unsung hero, a song by a Johnny Farmer, a matter of Australia, called you're the voice. It's the biggest song ever in Australia and but when it came to America it was very, very successful in Europe. It wasn't successful in America.

David Smallbone: 32:11

Um, I think I liked that song because it's challenging us to, because I think a lot of times as Christians, we hide our light under the bushel and I think we have a higher calling. And I suppose my you know the crazy thing for me all the funerals I'm going to are people younger than me now and so I haven't got a lot of time left, so I'm going to try and make it count, but if I had my time over again, I would have got more serious about Jesus, because it's the way to live, you know the way of the culture, which involves, you know, suicide and whatever and escape and all those type of things. It doesn't make sense to me, but the Jesus way absolutely makes sense. So it's the sum of you know, some good teaching over the years and a lot of good songs from a lot of good artists that have really impacted me.

Chris Estes: 33:34

Yeah, what about? So? Rebecca has had a huge career in Christian music early on, had an impact there for a king and country still having a big impact in Christian music and you've been involved throughout all those years. For you and I think I can think about both of those catalogs of songs Like are there songs in their catalogs You're like man. That song I remember, like I saw this testimony, I saw God move this way through that song with these people, or that really stand out to you.

David Smallbone: 34:11

I think the one song was for King Country is God Only Knows. You know, like almost every day we get a comment from somebody just about who was thinking of suicide and they decide not to after hearing that song. And then I think the there's probably two songs from Rebecca. One would be the God song which, you know, one of the leaders of the industry at that time when they, when Eddie Goma, decided that he wanted to put out an album called God, said I can't do that and Eddie, eddie pushed it through, but I felt that was a very. That song was almost euphoric. And then also the challenge in the song Go and Sin no More. She had a song called Go and Sin no More as well. I just you know, when you found Jesus you really don't want to go back to your vomit.

David Smallbone: 35:15

And so I think that that was just a good reminder that is good for us all, you know, because temptation temptation comes to everybody and I think when you're serious about Jesus, the enemy wants to take you down. You've been around enemy warfare, you know. I think enemy warfare was part of the record label that you used to be with, and so whenever, because you guys did incredible work, you know, impacted the world with such wonderful worship music and worship artists, and now the way you've springboarded them into what they're doing, what they're doing now, you know, it's just, it's just absolutely, absolutely beautiful.

Chris Estes: 36:04

Yeah, yeah, I love songs like that that you see, have a just an impact, like God only knows a song, that like is always reaching people in specific situations, that that you see God is breaking through with that. And which one thing I love about freaking country you guys always keep Jesus and your faith at the center of those nights, like I've been on tour with you guys and having the devotional time before and just really centering around what you're going after in those venues. It's not as big of a production as it can be, and it is. It is a which I love. I think the other thing that the Christian art space needs to have is excellence.

Chris Estes: 36:50

It needs to be leading edge of culture, and I think the boys do that when they take the stage.

David Smallbone: 36:56

I've got a thought on that which should be interesting for people to know. So when Rebecca's career started, we made a decision to go on the road as a family and so all the kids were thrown into the deep end very young, you know, eight, 10, 12, 14, daniel doing lights, and then Ben doing video and lights as well, and then Luke helping with production, joel doing backup singing and helping with production, josh doing the merch. So throwing them in the deep end. They're now really doing good work because they did their apprenticeship. And so I had somebody came up to us the other day oh, we're in Tulsa and Trans-Siberian orchestra had been in there the night before and the same guy doing the follow spot for them was doing follow spot for us. And he said to Dan he said, oh, I did Trans-Siberian last night. And then you guys tonight, oh, your show is way ahead of theirs and I think they really prioritise production and I think it's throwing the boys in at the deep end, starting 25 years ago, 26 years ago, that now it's showing up at the time.

David Smallbone: 38:24

At that time Joel would have been 14. Luke would have been 12. And so every day they would tour America, to Canada, to Europe, and so they went to the school of. They went to the college, which is the School of Hard Knocks. They never went to college, but they went to a college that was incredibly practical. Sometimes, I think, with colleges you got the head knowledge but you're not always practical, and so, but that was a thing, that was another God's economy idea, because I remember when we first arrived over there at Brentwood and we were trying to work out whether we're going to go on the road or what we're going to do, and Helen said I want to. We had a school just down the road. I want to keep the kids at home. I want to home school.

David Smallbone: 39:16

And she did that just to survive emotionally being away from Australia, all our friends and loved ones back there. But I think that was a Holy Spirit moment because then that allowed, two or three years later we started going on the road with Rebecca. That allowed us to take the family out, because when you got them in school you can't just pick them up and say, oh, we're not in school this week, we're out on tour. You know the school systems get pretty sick of that after a while. So there was something, something pretty life giving to what the boys do.

David Smallbone: 39:49

That came out of a probably our family being on survival at some level. How do we survive when we don't know anybody? But you know, the main takeaway of those first two years is the church loved on us. The industry wanted us to go away Because, you know, everybody knew my story that lot and so national doesn't want to be around failures and so I want to stay away from that guy. And. But it really was a beautiful thing because I rediscovered the wonder of the church and I'm now, if I'm not the best apologist for the church that you know, I'm gonna and you tell me that I'm gonna work hard.

Chris Estes: 40:39

What's not say that at all? That's great. Last question I have is and I think we kind of touched on some of this but are there songs or song that you say have impacted you most professionally, like in your profession, of what you've done and what you've accomplished? Is there a song like that actually set me in motion of? Like this is how I'm gonna do it.

David Smallbone: 41:06

My answer is gonna be different to what you're thinking because, of course, growing up with the kids, I would sing them to get them to sleep, because Rebecca would always want me to talk to her and pray with her and pat her on the head and sing to her and I would sing Jesus loves me. And so I do that now with my grandkids. I did that with all my kids. This is the craziest part. So we've got emus here. We got a little farm just outside of Franklin and we've got a couple of emus. Not many people you know have emus on their farm.

David Smallbone: 41:47

And we couldn't get the emu up from the front paddock. This blew my wife away because she'd been down there trying to get the emu up from the front paddock because we want to put it in enclosure at night time, protect it from predators, whatever. And so I went down there, started singing Jesus loves you, and the emu followed me up from the back paddock Up to the barnyard and so, like, here you got. Would you call it an old hymn? Yeah, I don't know, but I look at music. I think I look at the authenticity of casting crowns blows me away, you know, they're so genuine and we just released last Friday the boys did a production of Place in this World by Michael W.

David Smallbone: 42:46

Oh yeah, they always sang it and Michael W featured on it, and even the way that impacted and probably what you're picking up here from me, chris is a bit of a pop guy it's what's happening today and so this has just happened in the last week and so it's very much in my world. I listened to that song half a dozen times in the last three or four days and I rarely listened to songs that often. But the way all these people are coming into both Michael's socials and the King country socials and saying, hey, that impacted me 30 years ago, thank you for the new version, love hearing it. And then some people are saying I didn't even know that. What a great song. I've never heard it before and we did a Facebook live with Michael and it was such a for me, such a beautiful thing.

David Smallbone: 43:56

Seeing a different. You know, he's what you know Joel's, I think, 39, I think Luke's 37, what does Smitty be? Mid 60s, you know, probably 30 years apart. And to see that connection and see, and even Mike Blanton contacted me and said he was so happy to hear the song come out again, and a song that was a number one pop hit 30 years ago being reimagined on our inspired by album and associated with the Unsung Hero that is wow, yeah, Would you have toured that in Australia back in the day?

Chris Estes: 44:44

Was that part of you?

David Smallbone: 44:46

No, that was after him. We toured, we toured Amy and Michael. I think 34 years ago and I think they they re-tour again. I think maybe 32 years ago, but I, yeah, I think it was around 32 years ago, but I, when they toured the second time, I had left, had left the country. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Estes: 45:12

Wow, now you're back with them. Yeah, oh yeah Generations.

David Smallbone: 45:18

Yeah, Mike and I getting together for a meal. Next week he came out to we did a. This is an interesting thing which I didn't realize until we were out there, but we were the only people to ever do a series of shows at a residency at the Grand Ole Opry. We did three, Really, we did three this past year. No one has ever, ever done that before and then we're going to do probably sixth this year. Wow, and we're going to do either sixth or seventh this year. So yeah, Pretty, isn't that crazy? That is crazy.

Chris Estes: 45:51

Sorry to leave it at this way.

David Smallbone: 45:52

Yeah, a non-country band does a residency at the biggest country venue in the world. Yeah.

Chris Estes: 45:58

Which has origins to the. Originally it was kind of the gospel right. It was from the.

David Smallbone: 46:01

Rhyman Out of the Rhyman. Yeah, which was a church.

Chris Estes: 46:03

Yeah, which was a church which kind of all ties back to it.

David Smallbone: 46:07

I do. I do want to say to you, chris, I think I appreciate your faithfulness. You've always been a mover and a shaker behind the scenes and encouraging artists and holding them, holding them accountable, and I, you know, probably because of my vintage, I'm aware of these things. So I just want to thank you for your faithfulness. I, a lot of people get disenchanted with because of the craziness of getting balance between business and ministry and it's hard. You and I both know that and we've both been bruised in the process. But greatly appreciate your faithfulness, thank you.

Chris Estes: 46:55

That means a lot coming from you. Your faithfulness has had a massive impact. And to that note, like what would you say to a young 15 year old, david, or the next 15 year old, who's been impacted by the stuff you've been involved in and the music that you've, you know you've, you've helped amplify the gospel and Jesus? Like what would you say to that young person about their journey and their, their, their journey into music?

David Smallbone: 47:27

I would say um, if you're a writer, write as much as you can. If you're not a writer, you're a singer, find a writer and encourage that writer, but take what you do seriously. A lot of people are half-hearted. You know what I think, because you know Australians. We have tenacity, particularly Australians who move from Australia to America, uh, and we never give up, and that is the thing that probably sets the side in the marketplace. So I think the two things that I would say is you're probably a songwriter, singer, you know. You look at Amy Grant, you look at Michael W, you look at Tobi Mack, you look at a lot of our great artists, their singers and songwriters. Grow that craft Always be. It doesn't mean you have to go to university or college, but it does mean you have to, and I would.

David Smallbone: 48:28

I would go to your church worship leader and say, hey, what, who, who, who's writing songs in? You know, for for the church, can I, can I write with that person? Uh, and sometimes it's good to. And if it's a female and you're writing with another male, writing is very intimate. You might need another, either you might need to do as three people. Uh, have another party there, because accountability is always a good thing. The other thing is, I would encourage you to be involved in missions work, either loving on the brokenhearted by uh helping uh the homeless locally, or going on an overseas missions trip with your church, because our pastors just come back from Israel. He's been over there the last few days and I just saw him. He preached on Sunday. Uh, not a lot of people went to church because of the weather, but, uh, he was fired up. And you know what's going on in Israel is, the moment is tough, um, it's tough on both sides, but I uh, I believe Jesus is the answer. That's what our pastor does and I think when we get out of our comfort zone he shows up. So it may not be going on a mission strip, it may not be working at the local homelessness shoulder, but be prepared to get out of your comfort zone.

David Smallbone: 50:01

Because I think, looking back on my life, when my wife supported me in coming to America, I remember going to her and saying hey, babe, I think the only way we're gonna get ahead is if we go to Australia, and this was 32 years ago. And she said we'll go for two years. And here we are, 32 years later, we're still here. It took two years before we got Rebecca's contract, before that started, before she put out her first album. But I'd say, work out what you wanna do and if you really feel called to do it, ask other artists how they've survived. But no, it's not gonna be a bed of roses, it's gonna be hard-yacquered.

David Smallbone: 50:57

And I think doing Christian music it's harder than doing mainstream music because there's not as much money and the enemy is out to get you.

David Smallbone: 51:06

And the enemy will come at you with temptation. He will come at you whatever way because he doesn't want, and the enemy's having a field day in America at the moment. And so that's why it's important that anyone listening, who is unsure, who has the gift set, and your friends are gonna tell you if you've got the gift set or not. And so if you say, well, I'm unsure whether I've got the gift set or not, you go to your friends and say, hey, buddy, tell me, can I do this or can't I? And if they say, oh, I'm an unsure, well, you might need to do what I did and become a manager or a marketing person because I didn't have the musicality. But if you got the musicality, jolly will max it out. The church needs you, the community needs you, the culture needs you. What we bring to the table is more important than ever in history, because my concern is, unless we see revival in America, america could fall, and that's what I'm committed to.

Chris Estes: 52:06

Yeah, yeah, awesome man, thanks for being on the show and sharing your wisdom.

David Smallbone: 52:15

I wish I could have given you more songs, but I'm just a music guy that gets inspired by and that's why I talked Jolly Brian Houston. He didn't want to start the record label. He's probably not gonna like me saying this, but Jeff Bullock was a worship leader at Hillsong so he and I wanted to start the record label, and this was 37 years ago. Jeff goes to Brian, says hey, let's start a record label. And Brian says, oh, I don't want to do it. So Bullock comes to me and says will you go and talk to Brian? I went and talked to Brian, we talked him into it and I was involved for the first three years and I was so happy that I was allowed to be small part of something that impacted the world.

Chris Estes: 52:54

It did, it was the origin story. I gotta say, my producer, my podcast producer, he, what was the song? So his, you know the music video, the proof of your love that the boys did for King Country. So his first date. His name is Paul Kimzell and his wife's Chrissy. She was a makeup artist. They're both a national.

Chris Estes: 53:15

And they were just to go on their first date and he said they got the call to go do makeup for all the actors and the stand ins. So that ended up being their first date was they were on set making people look like zombies and a factory for it. Boy oh boy. It was like when you get the call you gotta do it, but he's like he loves you guys, oh good.

David Smallbone: 53:42

Yeah, love it to hear yeah.