James Duke: 0:04

No matter what country we were going to, she would want to sing in that language. I remember going to Russia one time and playing in this theater and her singing her normal songs in Russian, and this was the most amazing night of my life one of them, for sure Listening to a whole theater full of people from another country. When you grow up especially growing up in the eighties, like you only saw movies about Russian people that weren't very good, you know, and so like.

James Duke: 0:34

But you're like, these people are amazing when we're all in this together and they're singing with us these songs that we wrote, and they're at the top of their lungs and we're singing in their language and it was just crazy and stuff like that yeah, welcome to the power of songs podcast, where we explore the powerful connections songs have throughout the journey of life awesome.

Chris Estes: 1:03

Well, this is going to be the kickoff to what I'm calling season number two, because I took a little four week break trying to get, trying to get guests every so much time I had my hiatus, and now we're back. So maybe we're in seasons now. James, thanks for being on the podcast man.

James Duke: 1:18

My pleasure.

Chris Estes: 1:18

This is like I'm so excited about everything. I'm going to learn some stuff about your early musical days, yeah, and I usually start there. We could talk about all the things you've done and you're doing. That could be a whole podcast in itself.

James Duke: 1:32

We'll get there.

Chris Estes: 1:33

But the first question I always start with is what's your earliest memory of actually listening to music when you felt music do something you're like? Oh that's.

James Duke: 1:44

Yeah, I grew up, my dad was a pastor, yeah, um, for a lot of years, and my earliest memories are being in church with, you know, a band playing and just being so into the music, like not. I don't remember what the songs were, obviously, but I remember being just a little kid and I had this really cool thing I would do where I would basically skip from one end of the of the room to the other, like back and forth sometimes in the front row just back and forth, like it's like as soon as I heard music I would just start kind of dance, skipping one to the left and back, to the right and back and forth, and I I would do that the whole time the music played.

James Duke: 2:26

apparently that's what my parents tell me.

James Duke: 2:28

I remember it in my mind, but they were like no, sometimes you'd run like the old Holy Ghost meetings, you'd run circles around the whole room or whatever, but as soon as the music started I was just moving. So obviously not a Baptist church, right, yeah. And I remember being in other churches where just the free flow, just excitement, and we were always going to these non-denominational churches that had a big focus on music and there would be just times where it just wouldn't stop. It would go the whole service. And I just remember being caught up in those rooms with them singing. There would be times where they would just sing the same song for an hour, just keep going. But I just remember looking around and seeing joy on people's faces and just shouting and clapping and singing as loud as people could. I just remember the feeling of that just being surrounded by people.

Chris Estes: 3:32

What year, how old were?

James Duke: 3:33

you then? What year was that? I remember it back when I was four and five years old.

Chris Estes: 3:38

Wow, so that was like early 90s, 80s, 80s, 80s. Okay, I'm 45.

James Duke: 3:45

I don't have to say your age, I'm proud of it. Yes and so yeah, early 80s, even Wow.

Chris Estes: 3:56

So what was the music like then? I didn't grow up in the church in the 80s. I was more in the school of hard rock and metal during those days, yeah.

James Duke: 4:06

I don't remember much of the songs. What? It was, but it was like full bands, yeah, just a big, probably just a mess of a band and whatever. But I do remember, though, my parents when they first started subscribing to the Cassette of the Month Club with Integrity.

Chris Estes: 4:28

Hosanna Club. That's what put them on the map A little cardboard box that would show up.

James Duke: 4:34

And my parents? They always had worship music playing in our house. Did they play music or were they just pastors?

Chris Estes: 4:42

They didn't really.

James Duke: 4:46

I think my dad must have played guitar at some point, kind of, because there was always a guitar in our house that belonged to him sort of, but I never saw him play it, and so they just loved music.

James Duke: 5:02

But really they just loved worship music. Loved music, yeah, but really they just loved worship music. But, yeah, I just remember that. So because of that, we would always go to churches where that was like a focus and that was a big part of our lives, but that was the earliest memories of really just being in church. So was guitar your first instrument?

Chris Estes: 5:29

Pretty much, yeah, we'll get into all the accolades of guitar work you've done in modern Christian worship, which is pretty amazing. So do you remember what pulled you into guitar? So you went from skipping and running and doing laps. What was it that? Was there a song or was there a moment? You're like I want to be the guy playing the guitar.

James Duke: 5:51

Yeah, I would say probably around the time I was 12 or 13. Was the same age like I started getting really into music and I had two friends that were going to start playing guitar lessons, like my two best friends, and so I basically wasn't going to be left out, and so I wanted to play guitar too. So that's sort of how it started. I just kind of started playing because my friends were doing it.

Chris Estes: 6:17

What was that first guitar?

James Duke: 6:18

I'm curious. It was an Ovation that was in my closet because my dad had it, and so that was my first guitar. I kind of started playing on.

Chris Estes: 6:30

And what was the first song you picked up?

James Duke: 6:34

I don't. I think probably I remember my first guitar lesson. I learned a little blues progression, first song, I bet, honestly, I bet I probably asked because I took lessons from our church guitar player and I bet I just asked him to teach me some sort of praise and worship songs.

Chris Estes: 6:51

Did you start playing then? Were you starting to play in church at that age?

James Duke: 6:55

I think it took me a couple of years to get to where I could, but as soon as I could I started playing at my church.

Chris Estes: 7:01

Yeah, John, was he always bass, or was he?

James Duke: 7:05

Yeah, he plays bass and guitar. So he kind of went back and forth, but he was more drawn to bass.

Chris Estes: 7:13

Is he younger or older than you? He's younger two years. Two years, okay. So did you guys pick up around the same time? Yeah.

James Duke: 7:20

Yeah, we were definitely always in our rooms playing whatever it was as loud as we could, I'm sure, so he'd be in his room and yeah, literally we would play all day, every day, until my older brother would come and yell at me and threaten to throw my amp out the window or whatever and I guess I was done for the night. But yeah, we were always indirectly playing music together. Yeah, my brother, yeah so what was it?

Chris Estes: 7:51

was there a first song or artist that you're like, man, that really influenced me is as wanting to be a musician, aside from your friends doing guitar lessons like was there that moment you're like man that I want to be.

James Duke: 8:03

I want to sound like that uh, probably when I was a kid the first like band that I heard that really caught my attention was you too. Yeah, from my older brother. He was a huge fan and always playing it in the car and stuff, and so that was probably the first kind of proper Was it early, u2?

Chris Estes: 8:26

Was it like Sunday, u2?

James Duke: 8:28

It was like Joshua Tree. When Joshua Tree came out and I remember he would drive us to school every morning and that particular year it was U2 every day in the car and that was probably the first time that I was really like taken by music or besides being in church and just being into it.

James Duke: 8:53

so yeah, were your parents pretty like were they lenient with you your musical explorations outside of Christian music by the time I have an older brother and older sister and so by the time I was around the age of getting into music, they were kind of like okay with it, but I mean kind of that same time, like it still wasn't. Like now, like no one in church, like they'll play, like big churches will play, like secular songs, so like that wasn't. You couldn't do that. Big churches will play secular songs, but you couldn't do that.

James Duke: 9:30

when I was, that wasn't okay, and so my parents were very cool. I was a pretty good kid so I wasn't ever getting into trouble or doing crazy stuff. So they were pretty cool about the music I listened to, um, but they were more less cool with it with my older siblings, but it's a, that's how it usually works.

Chris Estes: 9:53

Like the third born, they're like worn down, I'm sure it'll be fine, like whatever. Yeah, um, so did you. I know you too, man. I remember hearing edge for the first time and I was like, wow, that is. I never heard delay like that. You started thinking about the way all of his pedal sounds and his tone and stuff, did you? Were you into that before you heard U2, or did that pull you into that side of it?

James Duke: 10:16

I think when I was first listening, I wasn't necessarily listening to the guitar. I think I was more impacted by the intensity of the music and the intensity of the vocals and the band and that kind of stuff. But when I started getting interested in guitar that was definitely a huge influence on me, like, yeah, the way he interacts in a song was like a big influence for sure.

Chris Estes: 10:52

Yeah, yeah, they're very unique. I felt like it. It kind of the early early you two had a little bit of a punk edge to it, right, and then it kind of progressed where something with the police like I feel like the police had that kind of vibe like they had like a little yeah punk feeling to it for sure and evolved um. So growing up you're you're now kind of a middle teenager, later teenager. When did you start playing like with band bands, like real bands?

James Duke: 11:20

um, probably around 16 or 17,. Me and my friends from church started wanting to be in bands together, and so we would start. We started our. I think I started my first band when I was 16 years old.

Chris Estes: 11:38

Yeah, what were you guys playing?

James Duke: 11:41

Um, just whatever, what like the music, yeah, yeah, I mean, uh, christian rock yeah, what was the christian rock then?

Chris Estes: 11:53

like, what was the, the big christian rock band um?

James Duke: 11:56

we were kind of coming up around the same time like that kind of mid, mid nineties alternative Christian thing that happened. That was so great, you know. Tooth and nail came out and so all that stuff was happening and um, so that was a we I never listened to like CCM music, yeah, um, but that was very interesting to me and so like I got super into all of that whole wave of music. Yeah, like the yeah.

James Duke: 12:30

MXPX and um Starflyer and um Poor Old Lou and Moriola's Forest and all, all of those bands I loved. And it was such an exciting time for those bands I loved and it was such an exciting time for because that wave came and it was such a scene all over the country and it was, those bands were just constantly touring so you could see them like two or three times a year.

James Duke: 12:57

yeah, through every all those bands, and it was so we would go to all those shows. We had a a couple cool music venues in Jacksonville at the time and we were just constantly going to see shows and so we probably tried to make our music sound like that, but we weren't very good. So it was some sort of your first band, first songs you've ever written in your life, so you could probably imagine what it sounded like.

Chris Estes: 13:24

So at that point, what guitar were you in? What was your collection looking like then? Did you have a collection or was it just a guitar?

James Duke: 13:30

No, I had a Fender Stratocaster and that was my guitar. Yeah, yeah, kind of I've always been a Fender player, fender style player, and so that's kind of I've always played those. But even that earlyender style player, and so that's kind of I've always played those and so, but even that early, that was what I that's what got you, that got me. Yeah Again, because the guitar player at my church had one and I wanted one because he had one.

Chris Estes: 13:55

Yeah, Did you get into delirious around that? To me like they felt like they were influenced by U2 and they had a similar kind of approach and they had such an influence on Christian music.

James Duke: 14:10

I feel like Huge yeah, I remember having friends in the UK that would mail us their albums because you couldn't get them here.

Chris Estes: 14:22

Yeah, yeah.

James Duke: 14:23

And like the Live in the Can album.

James Duke: 14:26

That was the first one I heard that I was like, oh my God, this is amazing, yeah. And it was still. That was back, that was still the time where they were still kind of like doing like kind of classic style church music sounding stuff on those records too. So it was like definitely more like, um, churches could use it more than later, obviously, but uh, that was when that, when I first time I heard that record, that was a big deal um. So yeah, we were super into that.

Chris Estes: 15:02

It's funny how we both work in the music industry now in a lot of different ways, but discoverability and accessibility is so. I mean now it's just like somebody texts you or you see it in a social feed. But then I remember having to go to either a friend's house who had the record, had a cassette he maybe copied a cassette for you or somebody mailed it to you.

James Duke: 15:27

Yeah.

Chris Estes: 15:28

I was like so, in those days you're discovering, was that kind of like what you grew up with in your teenage years? Was it whatever your friends had, whatever Was Christian radio, even a thing then? Yeah, I think so. They weren't playing tooth and nail stuff though.

James Duke: 15:44

Right, I wasn't. Yeah, and like normal, like CCM music was never on my radar. Like I saw that there was radio but I wasn't listening to it.

Chris Estes: 15:57

Yeah, yeah. So coming out of your teenage years was your first band that recorded? Would that have been John Mark back then, john Mark McGillen, or was there bands before that?

James Duke: 16:10

That I was playing with. Yeah, yeah, I had friends when I was growing up in Florida that we would kind of make music together and I would play with different worship leaders and different people like that. And so before I moved up to Charlotte I had already started kind of playing, recording guitars and doing session work kind of, back then even. And so by the time I moved up to Charlotte and started playing with people like John Mark McMillan, like that was how yeah, so I didn't answer your question very well.

Chris Estes: 16:52

But yeah, john.

James Duke: 16:53

I had already been doing that before. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I had kind of I had like a one little Christiany rock band and then I played like a one little Christian-y rock band and then I played like worship-style gigs with people and we'd travel around kind of regionally and do different things. And my parents after they were pastors until I was probably five and then they were just focusing on like missionary work and stuff, and so we would they've had like a big ministry down in Brazil for probably like almost 40 years at this point and we, me and my friends would go down there for their worship conferences and play, make records down there, and so, yeah, I had been doing that for a long time up until that point, and so I kind of had a history of that. Yeah yeah.

James Duke: 17:53

I was really fortunate, like my parents made a recording studio basically to make worship projects to take to Brazil, like in Portuguese, wow and so they would always travel around Brazil with worship leaders and then so they would bring them to the States and record worship music and then take it down there. And so I grew up with my friends and bands and we would record our own music in there too.

Chris Estes: 18:24

And so.

James Duke: 18:24

I was kind of like fortunate by very early on. I was like learning that how to do that and stuff.

Chris Estes: 18:30

Were you doing sessions for those, those Brazilian artists when they came in? Were you doing the guitar.

James Duke: 18:35

Um, probably eventually, yeah, yeah.

Chris Estes: 18:38

I would.

James Duke: 18:38

yeah, I would play on those records too, and so, um, it was really fortunate for me because I could do that, and then I could also use it for my own bands or whatever we wanted to do so yeah, anything.

Chris Estes: 18:53

So you get to Charlotte, you meet. How'd you meet John Mark? Moving on, did you go to church? In his church?

James Duke: 18:59

yes, so John Mark was at a church called Morning Star and the main worship pastor his name was Leonard Jones and he was from Jacksonville, where I was from, and he had been friends with my parents from like before I was born, I think, and they would come in like the late 90s, early 2000s.

James Duke: 19:21

They would do these really big worship conferences and make records and for a while it was like a real. They made a handful of records that were late 90s, early 2000s. They would do these really big worship conferences and make records and for a while it was like a real. They made a handful of records that were pretty influential for a lot of people. But they would come down also to Jacksonville and play at my home church and do their conferences there, and so I kind of became friends with him through that and he started inviting me up to Charlotte to play at their worship events there and so I would go up there and that's how I met John Mark. I think the first time he played at one of those was the first time I came up and that's how I met him. I played one of the first songs he ever wrote and played live. I was there playing with him Amazing.

Chris Estes: 20:06

There's so many artists that have come out of or been a part of Morningstar yeah.

James Duke: 20:10

Like that really was a hub. It really was. And like I moved up there and that was when John Mark's stuff was just kind of starting. The Helzers were around, josh Baldwin was around, there was a whole group of us that all kind of were around together.

Chris Estes: 20:28

Yeah yeah, North Carolina's got some deep roots in the Christian space. They do for sure.

James Duke: 20:33

Oh man. And so that's kind of what took me up there eventually, like doing the being with them, and they would also take me with them to like, do like uh, through europe and stuff and we would play there. So they started taking me, um, to play with all their events all over, and I really that was the first time I felt like musically and kind of just culturally I felt like I belonged somewhere and so like every chance I got I was up there and so eventually I started working at that church and that's what made me able to move to Charlotte and so, yeah, that was a really big deal.

Chris Estes: 21:20

First, like paying gig yeah.

James Duke: 21:23

And like I was thinking back about now the idea of moving. Of course I'm settled and have a family and stuff, but I didn't probably give it hardly any thought. They offered me a job and I was like I'm moving.

James Duke: 21:38

And it was no money, basically, and I just loved it so much I didn't care, I was just going gonna make it work and yeah, thankfully I did and but yeah, it was definitely a good move for me, wow this is a tough question for you, because you've written on and you've been a part of so many songs, like literally for decades.

Chris Estes: 22:00

Um, what are some of your favorite songs? You've worked on.

James Duke: 22:07

Let's see. Probably a lot of the early John Mark stuff that I was involved with was huge because when I played with him, especially when I first met him, it was one of the first times like I felt like my guitar playing had found a voice yeah you know and so like that was very like.

James Duke: 22:35

That was really formative and for me and and so like being around for that to kind of like help establish him and what his career was going to become, that was a big deal. So I'm like pretty proud of those first couple of records was that?

Chris Estes: 22:53

would that have been like the medicine? And?

James Duke: 22:56

the one before that that had like how he loves, like we recorded that in like a wood shop, like this, literally.

Chris Estes: 23:01

Yeah, you know, in the middle of the summer were you at the call when he played that live that year?

James Duke: 23:07

like the famous, I wasn't there, but yeah I was around but I wasn't there, um, and so that's like always like a, a big um mark on my career, um, but man, there's so many records. It's like the first record I did with Matt Redman. I played on with Matt Redman, it was really awesome, were you young then?

Chris Estes: 23:34

How old were you when you played on Matt's?

James Duke: 23:36

stuff. I don't even know. I wasn't young. I was probably early 30s. Yeah, I wasn't young, I was probably early 30s. Yeah, but I've always when I look back over my through my career, like my, it was always kind of friendship based.

Chris Estes: 23:57

Yeah.

James Duke: 23:58

And I look back now and I see how. Oh, because I was just playing with my friends and it was about the music. It wasn't about money, it wasn't about whatever, it was just playing music with people you love and then your friendship, your friend circle just gets expanded. And the reason Matt Redman wanted me to play on his record was because he heard me playing with John Mark and that kind of stuff, and so, seeing how that works and I didn't have the right personality to be the guy that just shows up as a hired gun and has to audition, I would have been horrible at that, and so I see how the Lord kind of made that for me. But that Redmond record was really special. Um, some of the uh, jonathan and Melissa Helzer records that.

James Duke: 24:54

I played on were always. They're just so, so, such great people and they really love people a lot, and so when they bring you in, you really feel like you're part of a family and that they want you to do what you do and they respect what you do, and so those are great.

Chris Estes: 25:16

Yeah, I think when I met you was in Integrity when John and Mark McMillan came down to do Chapel, and Jay King, who was a huge champion for you guys like I literally would go by his office and he'd be playing all the john martin mcmillan stuff, trying to convince the executives that this is something we should sign.

Chris Estes: 25:35

I think it was his first year there too and um literally could hear it all the time, just playing and playing. Then got you guys down there a lot of boardroom discussions about how he loves is it a Christian song, I mean, is it a church song or is it? You know all the things. But when you guys showed up for chapel, I remember you setting up and him setting up and I'm a guitar player and I'm like this is going to be and I knew what it sounded like. But the way you guys I think the thing that makes you a great musician and kind of song steward is that you know the room and you know the setting and it was probably from growing up in church and playing all different kinds of venues. But what you guys did in there with the tones and the swells and your trademark sound and John Mark just leading chapel with you know 50 integrity employees, was super special man, um, but I agree, I think that I remember hearing it for the first time recorded what jay was playing.

Chris Estes: 26:36

I was like this is. This is like an iconic guitar sound. There's bands that you know. It's like oh I know the guitar sound.

Chris Estes: 26:41

I know that voice, I know that drum beat, I know that bass player and, um, I think there think there's no one else in the Christian space that innovated that the way that you did.

James Duke: 26:52

Thank you.

Chris Estes: 26:54

So that leads me to my question yeah, so when you started playing with John Mark because you said this, you started to form your sound in that. Do you feel like you were at that next step? Or playing with John Mark made you kind of, because I feel like you've always supported the songs and supported there's players that overplay and they can kind of dominate the song on the guitar side and there's players that kind of carry the song. I think U2 does it really well. Edge finds his places, red his his places. Red Hot Chili Peppers do it amazingly with, you know, a whole band that's very cognizant of where each other is in the song. So the question is this did, did you cause you kind of shaped his sound and did he shape your sound too? Did you guys kind of meet at the crossroads?

James Duke: 27:46

I would say so, like I'm like a very reactive player and so a lot of those times I'll find myself just sort of trying to kind of give a response to what I'm hearing.

James Duke: 28:03

And so with him kind of, in the early days, as it developed, it was mainly just yeah, I definitely kind of learned how to sculpt sounds and kind of expand that aspect.

James Duke: 28:20

So while I was playing with him in those early days, I was playing at the church with a bunch of other people, and so I had a lot of time to kind of work on how I fit into a band, because at that particular church there was always lots of people playing. Well, first, most of them were way better than me at the time I was a lot younger and wasn't a musician musician, and so I had to kind of step up my game too. But I had to figure out what it was I was going to do that was going to fit in that music, to figure out how what it was I was going to do that was going to fit in that music, and so, um, it was just a lot of uh, experimenting and stuff, and so with the John Mark music he always kind of let me get like, made space for me yeah and so I I was given the opportunity to kind of decide how it was going to sound.

James Duke: 29:30

Yeah, not just like with the guitars, but even like kind of like the vibe sometimes and the the how rowdy it was going to get or whatever. And so, um, yeah, it was definitely like a learning process. Every couple years I felt like by the time we got to the medicine record, we had sort of hit on something. At least for that time that was like a definite sound and it's funny to listen back to it, because we would just be like, okay, we're going to play the first chorus and then we would be like let's like a really weird amount of times and then play like a turnaround that made no sense for how many.

James Duke: 30:05

Like, instead of just doing it like for eight bars, we do it for like 15 or something like something weird and like we weren't even thinking, we were just riffing and going out like just in a room together and we're just playing, and so like a lot of the arrangements are kind of funny. When you listen back to them they don't make a lot of sense, but we definitely were hitting on something at that time that was pretty unique for the kind of scene we were in, but it took a few years to kind of get to that. Also, the better you get, the more you've kind of been in control of what you're doing. I spent a lot of time barely hanging, barely hanging on chaos with what I was doing and like I wouldn't have.

James Duke: 30:49

I didn't really know what I was playing. I just was kind of like trying to play what I was hearing in my head and so like I could very easily be like, okay, was I supposed to play? Am I supposed to play this next part on the 13th fret or the 14th fret?

Chris Estes: 31:04

And I'd be like that's a huge difference. Always one half step away from being in the right place, and so it was always kind of like chaos, but we kind of liked that.

James Duke: 31:15

We kind of liked not knowing what was going to happen, especially live. We all kind of fed off of that and loved that feeling of it could all fall apart at any moment, like something terrible could happen or something awesome could happen. And so we kind of yeah, we kind of just grew up musically together, I would say yeah, man, you've played.

Chris Estes: 31:37

I think from the surface someone could look at it and be like you look like a hired gun because you play with so many different people but in each environment I've seen you in, you've always just served the artist, the song, the room. What are some of your favorite memories of live performances?

James Duke: 31:54

Oh man, there's been a lot, I think so many Hundreds.

James Duke: 32:04

I would say some that really stick out. I remember playing a specific show on a specific tour with John Mark. We were out opening on the last David Crowder band tour and we played the Tabernacle in Atlanta and that was just one of those shows that felt like real magic. But there was also like times where we played at like this little church in the middle of nowhere and there was like 30 people, but it was just the most sweet night of our lives. One of my favorite things I've played live was, uh, I got to play madison square garden with chris tomlin a couple of times and that was pretty awesome nice um, but man, I think I used to play another person that I met at Morningstar.

James Duke: 33:03

Her name is Susie Urai and she was one of the main people that like kind of another one of those singers that I felt like was I would play something and then she would sing something and I was like I felt like that was what I was trying to to say with my guitar, like one of those kind of people. But she was always so great about no matter what country we were going to, she would want to sing in that language. I remember going to Russia one time and playing this theater and her singing her normal songs in Russian and this is like the most amazing night of my life one of one of them for sure. Um, listening to, you know, a whole theater full of people from another country that, like you know, when you grow up and especially the like growing up in the eighties, like you only saw movies about Russian people that weren't very good.

Chris Estes: 34:00

Yeah.

James Duke: 34:00

And so like you, but you're like. These people are amazing when we're all in this together and they're singing with us these songs that we wrote, and they're at the top of their lungs and we're singing in their language, and it was just crazy. Stuff like that.

Chris Estes: 34:16

It's magical to see that man. Yeah, I had that experience with Josh Baldwin and Callie from Bethel. We did Josh Baldwin and Callie from Bethel we did so. I think it was the first time Bethel sang live in Spanish at an event and it was those two and Callie she actually minored in Spanish in college and she always felt like the Lord had something for her in that.

Chris Estes: 34:38

She never knew why, so she's fluent from college. She had to brush up a little bit. But when we got down there they were with Christine DiClario and she sang Ever Be, which at that time was a big song and completely in Spanish, and then she flowed in Spanish. She did Spontaneous in Spanish, which was amazing. I was like you, just feel it in the room.

James Duke: 34:58

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. That's. One awesome thing about what music does is how it literally brings the world together, and it's like to be part of that global community of people is incredible to think about.

Chris Estes: 35:24

It's really interesting because there's no denominations when it comes to music.

Chris Estes: 35:29

You know it's not like because there can be denominational lines that you can't do this or that we don't do that or we don't like that, but music really crosses all those borders. Man, yeah, I felt it with how he Loves, like honestly. I remember sitting in boardrooms debating whether or not and I think jay talked him into signing just that song. Before we got into signing, john mark and you guys to the label and it was that same year that david crowder was like I'm gonna do that song at uh, that passion. And he changed, you know, one little verse change that was.

Chris Estes: 36:02

What everybody got hung up on was the sloppy, wet kiss. And the unforeseen kiss made it more approachable but it didn't really diminish. The song John Mark was great but that song literally impacted the church worldwide. You see, from a little town in North Carolina well, charlotte's not little but from North Carolina, which is not a music capital, but it's pretty amazing how it travels like that. I think there's a time to you know. The Bible says at the end of times the gospel is going to reach the ends of the earth and I think music is going to do that as well. We're fortunate we get to work in that. But I think that carries, like the Psalms does. It carries the truth and the Spirit of God and a lot of times people connect to that first before they can actually really connect to God in a Bible kind of way.

Chris Estes: 36:56

But I always love asking this question and I'm real curious in your instance what songs do you feel like have taught you the most over the years? Like if you were to say, like these, this song or these songs taught me the most as a guitar player, as a musician in a band, as a musician writer.

James Duke: 37:20

That's a good question on the spot. I'll tell you a story. I was on tour one time in Atlanta, georgia, and it was actually that night I told you about. We played at that place the Tabernacle, and before that we'd been on tour for a few weeks and.

James Duke: 37:44

I got a random message on Instagram or something and a guy was like hey, I work at this coffee shop in Atlanta. If you're coming through, come on over and I'll buy you a cup of coffee. And so we got to Atlanta and it was close enough to walk to from the venue where we were at. And so we go to Atlanta. And it was close enough to walk to from the venue where we were at. And so we go to this coffee shop. Meet, the guy gives us all a coffee. And it was funny because it was maybe me and a couple other guys, but we all got coffees. And then we all went and sat down in the coffee shop. We all sat at different tables Because these two of us, we like each other, we don't want to hang out all the time, so it's like we're all sitting at, we're all sitting at different tables and I'm literally just kind of it's early, I'd probably just woken up and there's music playing and I'm not really listening to it, but I can just feel it and I think I'm probably scrolling on my phone or I don't know what I'm doing, but I started to feel like in my heart like something's happening and like, right.

James Duke: 38:49

Then it was like they stopped that song and put on something else. And I was like what was that song? And it was like I wouldn't, like I'm normally like I would have been like shy or something, so I wouldn't have asked what the song was. But I went up and I was like, hey, what was that song that you were just playing? And he goes oh, I'm sorry, I wouldn't have turned it off. He's like this is, it was a Manchester orchestra song called I Can Feel a Hot One.

James Duke: 39:20

And I was like it's weird, because I knew of that band but I didn't know the song. But it wasn't, I can't even. I didn't remember. I was not even listening to the song, I was just feeling it. And so I got back to the bus and we're all just hanging out. Some of the guys are playing video games or just doing whatever we're doing and I was trying to find it and I was like it might not even have been normal streaming back then, it doesn't matter. So I remember buying it. I was like I'm just going to buy the song. It was a buck. I was like I probably have a buck and I started listening to it and I remember, like the way like the song. If you listen to the song it's like very abstract and kind of telling the story, but it's, you know, but for some reason it just got me like and I remember my brother john, like knew the singer and I was like I was like what is this song about?

James Duke: 40:31

he's like I don't know. He's you know he just writes about all kinds of stuff but, anyway, he basically it was like that song read my mail. Oh yeah, and we. I've never told this story before we had had a miscarriage. Yeah, I'll try to get it together.

Chris Estes: 40:57

No, we had a miscarriage.

James Duke: 40:58

Let's try to get it together. No, we had a miscarriage and for some reason, the lyrics in that song I felt like were exactly how I felt. Wow, and I felt like I had never. I remember going to my bunk and listening to that song over and over and I felt like the Lord was healing my heart, like I was like I was like crying and I was like I had never cried about it. Wow, and yeah, like I've really felt it's like such a funny song, cause it's like that song someone that did it but it's like it literally like changed my life, that song

James Duke: 41:37

like healed my heart and I remember, I remember feeling like the Lord was like we're going to deal with this and we're going to deal with it today. And so like the thing I learned was like music, like everyone says that, like music is healing and music brings people together. But like the thing is is like you never know where that's going to come from. Yeah, and like I just heard it in the background in a coffee shop and like that little something was already working scotchy. Yeah, and like I'm like I'm so glad I spent that dollar.

James Duke: 42:15

That's the best dollar um yeah, but but yeah, like to this day, if I like, every now and then I'll put that song on and it just takes me right back there and it's like so beautiful. And I learned like you never know what people are going through. You don't always know, when you're writing a song, what it's going to do for someone and you can never tell how it's going to affect someone, how the person's going to take it. You might mean it one way, but they might, it might do something for somebody else that you could never even dream of and that you can't discount that, but where it's going to come from.

Chris Estes: 43:00

Yeah.

James Duke: 43:00

You know, and so like if I had never heard that song before, if I had never like literally gotten the courage to go ask somebody, like what the song was which doesn't even seem like a big deal, but back then that was like a huge deal for me, like I was. I wasn't, I wasn't very good at going up and talking to strangers and so like if I like, but there was just something in that music that was like just tapping on my heart.

James Duke: 43:30

you know it's amazing and like it's such like, yeah, and and so like. What I learned was that, like you never know what it's going to do for you. Like what the music, what the music you make is going to do for someone else, or even yourself, like you never know and you really like it, but it's so important to make it and to write it and to put it out, you know.

Chris Estes: 43:59

Yeah.

James Duke: 43:59

Because I really feel like that day is such a pivotal time in my life that literally changed my life. Wow, walking to a coffee shop, hearing something going back, buying a song, downloading it onto your phone and you never know when it. But that's what music is, that's how music does, and it can come from the most interesting people and places but it'll, it'll tell.

Chris Estes: 44:31

It's such an emotional expression, yeah, it's like from the music production without words to the words, like good melodies and everything. It just really does touch the soul in its universal and it's beautiful. I had somebody I was talking to somebody who's involved in TV film and sync and he was kind of given like the perspective, like everybody's interested in that, that part of it. But he said this thing that stuck with me. He said music in film and tv is uh how a director or the producer or the storyteller can, can bring words and emotion to a scene.

Chris Estes: 45:09

That's not written by script, it's not the actors aren't going to act it out, but it's going to bring that to the moment and I think that's what music does to us is the soundtrack to to our and yeah, so many times you can pinpoint it back to like that song did that thing, and a lot of times. For me too, it's like the musical part of it can bring you in first, and then lyric can minister, to you.

Chris Estes: 45:34

Man, thanks for sharing that. We had a miscarriage to our first pregnancy and our third pregnancy Our first one we were in. I kind of had a moment like that where music just met me.

James Duke: 45:45

I was in.

Chris Estes: 45:46

actually it was in China, of all places, and my wife went to go hear the heartbeat and I was like I'll just hear it from China. I had this whole thing. I'll wake up early in the morning. I'll hear it over the phone, it'll be cool. I can tell our first child that I heard their heartbeat over in china and it went downhill like there was no heartbeat and then I was, like you know, getting back from beijing, china, to gulf coast is.

Chris Estes: 46:11

You know it's a 24-hour process. So, um, in that dark, lonely moment in a hotel room kind of the same thing I was like flipping through chinese tv going like this is like I had no music, didn't? This is pre through Chinese TV going, I had no music. This was pre-iPod. I literally had no music to listen to. But Joyce Meyer came on.

Chris Estes: 46:27

She was randomly on at 4 am in the morning and I tuned in right before she was preaching. So it was the worship time and I Could Sing of your Love Forever was what came on. I just had a moment. I was like I just felt the Lord press in. It was the worship time and, um, I could sing, maybe, love forever was what came on, and I just you know, just had a moment.

Chris Estes: 46:41

I was like I just felt the lord press in and at that moment just felt close like okay, I'm not, I'm out I am alone across the world but I'm not alone in this moment and, um, I think music does that man, just like you know, with you it can. It can get into the places that the Lord wants to do some work in. What a beautiful story. That actually was an answer to the question. Yes, Because, one of them I like to ask is how have you?

James Duke: 47:12

seen the power of songs, I thought I was going to be like I was going to ask you when the last time you cried was yeah.

Chris Estes: 47:18

You're not the first guest to cry on the podcast, because I think, man, when you go back to those memories, like you go back to that soundtrack, it brings you back to that moment and it's like you said, as a husband and the house, it's hard for us to be strong and then, also, when do you take the time to actually emotionally process? So you answered both questions. One question I like to ask, which is really built around the name of the podcast, is how have you seen the power of songs?

James Duke: 47:50

Is there powerful?

Chris Estes: 47:51

stories of how a song has impacted you or somebody else. We get to work in Christian music from all sides of CCM to church, so a lot of the songs that we get to touch and be involved in do have powerful stories that go with them. I think how he Loves was one of those for me. Man, it's like that. Seeing John Mark McMillan's first, I think it really became a popular song from the call where, where he had a moment, you know, and he was leading it in a real vulnerable place and was, um, getting through the song, um, in that place, but you could, just you could catch and feel that and Lord's uh, continue to work on it, um, but you kind of answered that question. Are there other songs that you can think of that you've seen the power of?

James Duke: 48:43

Yeah, when standing up with Matt Redman while he sings Heart of Worship is always one of the most amazing.

Chris Estes: 48:55

I think that's a timeless song, man. That's always going to be yeah.

James Duke: 49:00

And it's one of those ones that means so much to so many people, in a lot of different ways too. Yeah, and that definitely like he created a new like that song at that time, like there was nothing like it, you know, and even apologizing in the middle of it. You know and like and what you know him it's like, so it's like that's him, that's who he is, but like that's one of those songs that was really special to be able to be a part of, with him playing it live and just seeing like cause he never he wouldn't always play it, but sometimes he'd play it and he'd be like oh yeah, here we go, it's going to be wonderful, it's a moment, yeah, yeah.

Chris Estes: 49:49

Yeah. Last question is and this is one that's you probably have multiple answers for cause you've worked with songs in so many different ways, but how do you approach, because now you're you're a and r-ing at centrist?

Chris Estes: 50:03

yep um, so you're involved in developing music and artists, careers and um, but you're also you know a writer, you're, you're, you're a musician. So how do you approach song? Like and it may be multiple ways when someone comes to you as hey, can you do some guitar work on this, or a session to here's my song, what do you think from an A&R perspective? But what are some ways that you approach handling songs?

James Duke: 50:37

It's definitely changed the way I listen to music. Um has changed actually, since I've been working at Centricity. Like I've always been more about like the, the overall feeling of the song, you know, and like I always loved a good lyric, but now it's I've learned to like, especially when working in the christian music industry, like and putting songs out that are focused for trying to be on the radio or whatever, like like I've learned to like how important the lyric is. You know, know and and so like I'll definitely listen a different way but from like the way, like for me it's always like since I was a kid, like, like even that song I was talking about, like how it hits me like it.

James Duke: 51:36

A lot of times it doesn't have anything to do with the lyrics. So I have to like now, like working in the position I am now, like I have to still stay sensitive to that because I know like that's such a big part of it is the spirit inside the song. And so when I'm like listening to a song for the first time, if I'm in my studio and I'm about to put guitars on it, I'm and that's what I'm listening for. I'm listening for like the, the heart of the song, the ends, the heartbeat of the song, like the, the way the song's like affecting me, but all and then how lyrically what they're saying. But I've always been more about the vibe of it and just how it affects me on that kind of level, but I would say in my role now as an A&R man Industry guy Industry suit.

Chris Estes: 52:40

For the record, I have never seen you in a suit.

James Duke: 52:43

Maybe at the Doves one time. I think A couple suits I might.

Chris Estes: 52:47

But they were cool suits. They weren't industry guy suits.

James Duke: 52:55

I try to keep in mind that music hits people different.

James Duke: 53:02

And so like it's not the lyric and Christian music and worship music. Obviously it's always so important just making sure that what they're singing is scripturally correct or like whatever, but I but still like the overall, like the heart of the song, the some people might call it the anointing or whatever. That that is that how it affects me first is usually how I can see like, oh yeah, I feel like there's always like. For me, there's always something about a song that I need to feel latched on to.

James Duke: 53:44

It might be the lyric, it might be the guitar, but it also might be something completely different within the song. But I just need something I can grab on to. And it's not so I don't know.

Chris Estes: 53:56

Yeah, yeah, that's good man. I think that's a lot of times, especially now with the volume of music that's out. You need something that can catch attention or someone can gravitate towards. That's awesome man. I figured you listen to music a little differently now with the A&R hat on.

James Duke: 54:16

Yeah but there's one thing that's funny, because I used to always just be like I don't know whatever they're singing, I'm sure it's fine. Well, because a lot of the music I grew up listening to, you don't have any idea what they're saying, or?

Chris Estes: 54:29

they're talking about.

James Duke: 54:31

Sometimes they're just using words because it sounds good, the rhythm of it or whatever. So it's just like I never really cared, know but now, now I listen, with a try to listen with more of a discerning ear, for that yeah, yeah, who do you?

Chris Estes: 54:45

who would you say? This is a off script question, but I'm curious because you're a guitar player like who do you think now in the christian space is paving new roads for guitar work? Is there anybody who sticks out? You're like man, this guy or that band or this.

James Duke: 55:02

Yeah, the first time I heard Gable Price and Friends when I heard Allstruck Revival, I remember I made a point to try to meet Gable and I said who's that guitar player? Yeah, and he said his name's Adam and I said, well, you need to make sure that you keep him happy, because I hadn't heard a guitar player play like that in a long time. Yeah, um, just the attitude and and just the like, the lead guitar aspect that he does, it was so.

Chris Estes: 55:45

It's a vibe man, it's such a vibe and it was like.

James Duke: 55:48

I was like I haven't heard anybody play like that.

Chris Estes: 55:50

And it goes so well with Gable's style and his writing. It's like yeah, I agree with you, man, it's that thing you're talking about, it's what you latch on to.

James Duke: 55:58

It grabs you, yeah, yeah, it's that thing you're talking about, it's what you latch on to. It grabs you, yeah, and so his playing is really exciting and really interesting to me, and so I'm a fan of him. So, yeah, that's literally been the one over the last few years that has stuck out big time to me.

Chris Estes: 56:17

Yeah it's a good call, Dude. Thanks for being on, man.

James Duke: 56:20

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. This has been a great season two Great podcast.

Chris Estes: 56:25

I always have this awkward moment of how to sign off Like do we say goodbye, do I say see you later, or this is the end. We done, we done. Thanks so much, man. Check out your catalog of stuff you've been involved in is tremendous. If somebody's new to your guitar work, I'd tell them to start with John Mark McMillan's Medicine Sure, what was the album before the Medicine?

James Duke: 56:50

Song Inside the Sounds of Breaking. That's what it was, yeah.

Chris Estes: 56:53

Those are two iconic albums. And then I mean there's tons of passion work you've done, but I think your sound is like it's that thing, it's that iconic thing, that's like man that's got the vibe. Yeah Well, thank you, Yep. All right, man, we're out, Peace.